Christian Sundberg's Pre-Birth Visions

The International Association for Near-Death Studies presents NDE Radio, a weekly exploration of near-death experiences and similar encounters with the other side. Now, here's your host, Lee Witting.

Welcome to NDE Radio. I'm your host, Lee Witting. Our guest today, Christian Sundberg, has the unusual ability to remember certain aspects of his pre-birth existence, giving us some clues to our pre-birth state before we accepted the veil of forgetfulness, which seems to be a condition for living our human lives. When Christian was a young child, he remembered his existence before coming to Earth. While that memory left him completely for his early adult life, it spontaneously returned 11 years ago as Christian took up a meditation practice and went through a personal awakening journey. He also began to have out-of-body experiences.

Christian now often speaks publicly as he seeks to remind others, at least in a small part, of who we really are beneath the human play. Professionally, Christian has worked for 15 years as a project manager for complex nuclear pump and valve manufacturing projects. Christian is the author of the book A Walk in the Physical, which attempts to succinctly describe the larger spiritual context in which we exist and the importance of love in our human journey. At the heart of the book is the theme of love, and it describes why authentic love, even in small matters, is so deeply important to our human journey. Christian, welcome to NDE Radio.

Thank you. It's an honor to be here.

Oh, it's an honor to have you, Christian. Most folks envision their birth as a human on Earth as their beginning, as a starting point, whereas, from your experience, you realize we've already lived a complex, loving, wisdom-filled existence on the other side. I believe your story will come as a real enlightenment to some of our listeners, so I'd like you to just go ahead and tell your story, and I'll try not to interrupt with questions until later on.

Oh, no problem. Thank you, Lee. Please do interrupt if something comes up. Okay, so I'm going to attempt to describe this, but I really have to disclaim first that our true natures are so much bigger than anything we can put words on. You know, human language is inherently limited. It's specific to our local experience here on Earth, and we live in a world of duality. Our nature, our true nature, our spiritual nature, transcends that duality. So it's pretty much impossible to try to take some words from Earth and use them to depict something which transcends those words. I just have to say that up front because it's very important to understand that it can't be limited in the way that we try to depict with language.

Okay, so that being said, and I understand some of this may sound a bit strange to some people, but I'm just going to share, and then, of course, please ask questions if any of this compels a question. But I remember a long time ago, before I was ever physical, coming across a being who had been physical. I'll just say before I go into it that I remember this was a young child before the age of five or six, and this memory left me completely by the age of six. It returned around the age of 30 or so when I took up a meditation practice, like you mentioned. But I used to think on these memories when I was a small child, and I used to draw upon them. I assumed everybody just kind of knew that we weren't from here, that this is just a neat place for coming to visit and having a neat experience. But nobody else talked about it, so I just kind of kept it to myself.

Anyway, a long time ago, I remember coming across this being who had had physical experiences, and this was before I had had any physical incarnations at all. I remember being completely and totally inspired by the quality of this being's essence or nature when I came across him. I could feel, because in that reality system where I was, there's a sharing of being where you can feel telepathically what the other person is thinking and who they are. When I engaged this being, I felt this joy and this power and this incredible quality of substance of what he was, what he had become. And I said, "My goodness, how did you become this? What could you possibly have done to be this? And do you really feel this much joy and power and love that I feel you feel?"

And he shared with me, yes, he felt in the depths of his being who he really was. He shared with me that he had lived physical lives, and he shared one in particular in which he had had a chronic pain or health condition that was very difficult for him for many years, something he could not easily physically escape. But the way that he met that experience with acceptance and humility and love allowed a certain refinement of who he was. It allowed an expansion and a deepening of who he really was.

And I asked him, "My goodness, were you healed?" because I could see how badly he had felt damage in this physical life. He shared, yes, and I felt the depth of the healing deep into his being. And I said, "I want to do this. I'm going to do it. I am going to do this." I was totally inspired. I said, "I will do this." And he said something like, not brushing me off, but in a playful way, almost like, "Yeah, that's what they all say. It's hard in a way that you don't know." And I said, "No, I mean it. I'm gonna do it." He said, "Well, then go talk to your guides."

So I did right after that, but I know that I lived many times, and then I went and found this being later and shared with him something to the effect of, "See, I'm in the process of doing this now." I wasn't all the way there, but I was growing and learning, and he was very encouraging when I found him again.

Okay, so now I'm going to jump a bit, and the sequence is difficult to describe here because this is not linear time. But the majority of what I remember is in a time that is somewhat immediately preceding this life, where I had taken a long break. I had lived physically and taken a very long period of relaxation and rest. I remember this guide coming to me over and over again, asking me, "Are you ready to go back yet? Are you ready to go back yet? Are you ready yet?" I kept putting him off over and over, saying, "No, I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready. I'm just going to rest. I'm just going to have fun."

Eventually, he kept reminding me of my own intention, and eventually, I said, "Okay, I'm ready now." And then I reviewed with this guide what I can only describe as my state or who I am and who I have been. It was like reviewing a complex set of qualities and things that I knew experientially, not intellectual learning, because all knowledge is there already. But I'm talking about qualities of being that I had experienced and that I had either developed or not.

It was very easy to identify the thing I needed to work on. I don't like the word "work on" because it's not quite the right language, but the thing that it would be best for me to experience and engage again. The best way I can describe it is that it was a very low-vibration fear, a fear that had bested me in a previous physical experience. In that previous physical experience, the fear had led me into a place where I was a very damaging person to others. In that experience, I was very hurtful, and I also hurt a lot myself. In that life, I ended up dying a physically painful death.

This fear was something to the effect of being unable to escape pain and being afraid of that, and also being too proud to be stuck in a state of pain. This fear had really overcome me. So I remember reviewing the depth of this fear and even then recognizing very objectively, "Wow, this is extremely low vibration. Can this even be done? Is it possible to integrate an experience of this vibration, this lowness?"

The being shared with me, yes. I asked, "Has it ever been done? Like, in all of creation, has anybody ever engaged something at this extreme in this way?" And I was shown yes. I was told, "And you have all of time available to you to do so. There's no hurry." And from that perspective, I knew, "Well, if it can be done, then I will do it." Which sounds strange to me as the human because I have very difficult moments like everybody else, but at the time, I just knew with incredible confidence because I knew who I really was, what we really are. I knew that I was immortal and free, and no harm could truly follow me. I knew my great strength, and I said, "Then if it can be done, I will do it."

So they brought me a life, a lifetime that was very appropriate for that purpose, to re-engage this fear. That lifetime was not this current lifetime; it was just before this one. I remember reviewing this life that they had brought me and accepting the life. And then I remember accepting the veil. This is the thing that I remember the most, and I think about this almost every day. This process of surrendering the total knowing and connectedness of what I really am so that I could be obscured and have this very specific local vantage point.

It was extremely shocking and jarring. It was like diving down a huge slide or diving into a swimming pool and diving down, down, down, down. I like to describe it like an amplifier that makes a pitch, like a knob, and then you turn down the knob. The volume and the vibration plummet, and then when you get to the bottom, you turn it down more, lower, lower, lower, lower, some more, lower, lower, more, lower still, lower more. That's how it felt to plummet all the way down from this connectedness and love and freedom of what I really was, down into this place of being physical and in the womb.

So that occurred, and after it did, I felt like I wasn't myself anymore. I felt like I had lost everything that I am, and I immediately responded in fear. In seconds, I said, "You know what? I'm not doing this. I am not doing this. This is so dark. This is so low vibration. I don't remember who I am. I don't know. I have no power. I am not doing this."

So I immediately mustered my might, summoned my strength, and fought my way out again. I pushed my way back out past the veil, and I was successful in doing that. But I had inadvertently killed the fetus and killed the body that was to be mine. I had a life review for my very short life. I don't know how long I was there; it wasn't very long. However long it was, I had a life review, and I saw the grief of the poor mother and how I had made her journey more difficult by heaping this grief upon her. I was aware of over 100 people who were going to have more difficult physical experiences because of my fear right at the beginning.

I was like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I did that." From that side, you know that all's well. It's okay. It's just a play. Everything is fine. No one is harmed. Everything's okay. But also, objectively, I was like, "Oh man, I gotta do something about this. I really have a lot of fear."

So I determined to meet that and to do my best so that I could try again. I still had the same goal. I wanted to have an experience, but I knew that I didn't want to repeat that mistake and that wasted opportunity. So I spent some time in a room that can only be described as a veil acceptance simulator. It was like a place where I went, and it was like I got to practice surrendering my control to a veil that came over my consciousness. It was metaphorically like diving into a dark pool. They would plummet me under the water, and now I'm underwater, and I could cry "uncle" if I wanted, and they'd let me out because it's just a simulator. It's not the real thing.

So it's a way to test yourself and to get accustomed to the surrender that is required to the veil. I did that for a while, and eventually, they brought me this life that I'm in now. I remember reviewing this life with incredible detail, like millions and millions of paths of how this life would go or could go. It's not "would" in a certain sense; it was all probabilities. But some things were extremely probable to happen, and other things were much less probable. It was like if you took a tree and laid the whole tree on its side and started at the trunk, where it's thick at the start, and then you work your way out to the branches, and it kind of gets thinner as you go.

It was like that, except I could feel what it would be like to be me. There were events in this tree, but it was not primarily about events. It was primarily about what it would actually be to be this person experiencing this perspective, like to be Christian, the human, at these various stages in my life and how it might unfold.

I knew that it was extremely likely that I would suffer a trauma in my early 20s and that this trauma would crush me. It would give me a chance to re-experience this very low-vibration fear, and that did happen. My body is 41 now, but when I was 22, I had a very traumatic experience. From that point of view, I was extremely excited actually at the opportunity to have this experience. It wasn't about fear or trepidation. It was like, "Wow, oh my gosh, okay, that's exciting. I'm gonna do that." I was super excited to have the chance to meet that again and have the opportunity to integrate that level of vibration.

I also reviewed other aspects of the life. I reviewed who my parents were, and I knew, for instance, that my father would instill confidence in me and that that would be important to me having a rock to stand on so that I would have a solid ground to meet the fear when it came. I knew that my parents were both very loving, unconditionally loving, and that would be very helpful and nurturing to me so that I would be strong.

I asked certain questions, like, "Can I be intelligent again this time?" because I knew that I had been intelligent in previous experiences, and that was a trait that I preferred. They said, "Yes, you can do that." I also asked if it was okay if I had a small amount of memory this time, just a small amount. I said, "I don't want to forget everything. I just want to have a tiny little glimmer." They said, "You can do that, but it will make the life even more difficult." I knew why, and it was because the contrast would be even greater. The contrast of experiencing this depth of density here on Earth would be even more pronounced if I had some awareness, by contrast, of where I came from.

But I knew that even that contrast, like all contrast, was an opportunity for growth. So I accepted. I said, "That's okay. I accept that."

Okay, so then I remember there having to be a moment to say yes and to agree to it, but I don't remember that moment. I do remember just after that being in this area that I can describe as like a waiting area where there was light, and it was beautiful. I was waiting, and then suddenly, my guide came to me and said, "Go now, like right now," almost like shaking my attention, like a rude interjection or something, like, "You've got to get on Earth time right now."

And then I was with these beings that I can only describe as technicians or tinkerers. They were very mechanical in nature, and they did this thing for me where they took the veil and the body and the life and the circumstances and matched them to me. Because the soul has certain qualities to it—it's very rich and complex and personal and unique—they do this thing where they match the veil to you so that it's right, it fits right, and it's organic to you, and it'll work.

I remember them doing this activity and then standing in this place that looked like a huge pit. It was like a huge shaft in this technician's room. I remember them asking me one last time, "Are you sure? Are you sure you want to do this? Because if you say yes here, you're in for the ride. There's no getting off the roller coaster. You can't get off until the ride comes to a complete stop."

So I said yes, and I remember once again the incredible depth and plummet in my being, this huge drop in vibration, lower, lower, lower, lower, lower, lower, lower, and this separation coming over me and this forgetting of all that I am. It was like diving into a vacuum of space where there's just no heat, no air, no nothing, just dense, dark, separate, and alone.

I remember diving all the way down, and this time, I just focused on not fighting it. I thought, "Just don't fight it. Let the veil do what it will do. That's all I have to do is just let go. Let the veil take hold of me. That's all I have to do." So I did that, and then I was in the womb. I was there, and I had made it. I sent one message back through to the technicians: "Did it take? Did that take?" And I got one message back: "Yes."

I knew that I had made it, which was very exciting. I was happy that I had made it. I had done it. I made it to the physical. I was there for a little while, and then, after a little while, that same fear rose up mightily in me. I did not like the state of me, and I said, "You know what? I am not doing this. I am not doing this. This is too dark. This is too low vibration. I am not going to tolerate a whole life of this. I'm not doing it."

So once again, I began to summon my might to fight my way out. I had this most holy moment happen in my whole life at this time. The only way I can describe it is the great spirit of God, the great God, the word "source," the I AM presence of all that is, came to me. It showed me that I was still the universe and I was still the stars. I felt the churning bliss of the sun in my being, and I felt that I was not just this small thing that had forgotten everything that it was. I was so much more.

I felt this incredible love for me, and God said to me, "This is still what you are. You can never not be this." That was the most holy moment for me in my life because that's what we really are. We're not just these human characters. We are powerful, free, loving spirit.

In that moment, I knew it. I felt it deeply in all of that I AM, and I knew the universe was in me. I wasn't stuck in this body. It called me, and I felt this, and I was like, "Oh man, oh, that's still what I am. Okay." Because that was my main fear, like I lost what I am. But in this moment, I knew that I had not lost what I was. I was still that, and it was so deeply calming. So I let go into the simple existence of being in the womb.

I was there for a while, and then the next memory I have is the day I was born. I remember the shock of being born, like having a very physical experience of cold and touching and light and sound and stimulus, but having no understanding at all of what was happening. I didn't know what was going on. Just something very shocking was happening.

I remember looking around at these beings in the room who were taking care of me and feeling love for them, like the nurses, and not knowing who they were. I was just like, "Wow, there are beings taking care of me. Like, where am I? What is this place?" But I had no understanding at all. It was just a very shocking event that was happening.

Yeah, so I didn't know any of this from the age of five or six until the age of 30. The primary trauma that I experienced was at the age of 22, and I certainly did not know it then. Indeed, that trauma would not have been possible if I had known this. Once I had that traumatic experience, I actually had post-traumatic stress disorder for about seven or eight years. I went through years of counseling, and I met layer after layer of this fear that I described.

It was only after I had met and processed and healed a great deal of it and taken up meditation and began to open up in many other ways that this memory could return. I could not have had the experience if I had remembered.

Having had these memories now for some time and dealing with the difference between sequential time on Earth and the language that we use, and your visions of everything happening on the other side more or less in the now, have you gotten any better at translating the one to something we can understand?

I've really tried to translate the best I can, but I feel that any time any word is spoken, it is just wrong. There's just no way. So I can't say I've gotten better at it. Maybe I've had more practice at trying, but I can't say that language can effectively communicate it. I'm very clear about that in the book that I wrote because I think that's really important to know. It can't be depicted.

So I have to probably say no, just because of the limitations of what we're dealing with. Language is ridiculously inefficient. I have to throw symbols, words at the listener, and then they have to take the symbols and compare them to their own experience, which isn't mine, and then try to understand it from within the Earth context. It's just super difficult to get anywhere with that type of communication.

The fact that pain can mature us and advance us in our spiritual strength—is a life dedicated purely to comfort a wasted life?

No, no, no. All experience is precious and very valuable. Any physical experience, any experience at all, but especially any physical experience, is just so precious. It's such a precious opportunity. That's something that I really think is important for people to know: having the opportunity to be the human person, no matter the circumstance, no matter if they're living a life of joy and comfort or not, is a precious, precious opportunity.

We, as souls, are integrators of experience. We love having experience and then integrating it into what we are and really expressing and shining our true loving natures through that experience. So that's wonderful if it can be an experience of peace and comfort.

When we talked yesterday, we talked a little about how, when the creation of our universe took place, the souls were very excited and happy about it. Describe that for the listeners.

Yeah, so I remember when there was this great intent being issued down from Source, but we were all involved. It was a collective intention to take this to the next level. We were in a period of deep rest, and there was this great excitement that we would then have a new outbreath—that's the best way to put it—this new incredibly big expansion of form in the form of a universe, this universe.

It was an incredibly exciting idea and opportunity that we would actually get to experience being these creatures, whatever we were going to be—not just human. Human is just one very small, precious, but very small part of the universe. The opportunity to actually have this experience from this vantage point is so additive. It's just such a precious gift to actually experience being the physical being and to have the cognitive perspective of the physical being and to have that be a part of what one is. Oh, it's the most exciting, wonderful opportunity, even though when we're here, of course, it can be very, very difficult at times. I'm not making light of that.

But yet, there are souls, I take it, that have not and probably will not experience being human.

Yes, the human incarnation thing is definitely not for everyone. It is only for those who wish to engage in such a deep experience of separation, to take it super far away. Duality is not fundamental, so this metaphor has limits, but if you imagine Source is like where we start, and if we can go this far away or maybe even this far away vibrationally, experientially, or maybe even this far away experientially, maybe even further, and we can meet that experience and integrate that experience and bring love through that experience, then there's this incredible expansion of being that takes place when we can do that.

It is so powerful, so good, so full of love and joy. But do all beings choose to enter this level of separation? No. Being human is quite extreme. It's a very, you could even say, alien experience. I like to say that being physical is kind of like an alien state. It feels very normal and natural while we're here, more veiled, and that's all we remember, of course. But our true nature, in comparison to what we really are, this experience of feeling this separate and not knowing all of what we are, is not standard. It's very unique, very alien.

It's like wearing a spacesuit or something and going into a hostile environment and seeing what you can do there. That kind of thing. So not everybody chooses to put on a spacesuit and go out into space.

Well, I would think, for me, this raises the question of evil because the furthest separation we could place away from the Source would be if we turned to something that was wrong or evil or separate to a great extent because we're not exhibiting any love at all.

Yeah, so I feel that what happens is, if we can go really far away, now what I'm talking about when this distance is actually not fundamentally charged yet, it's actually just very constraining. It's neutral. The experience of Earth is actually a neutral experience that we get to place our interpretation on. That's a very, very important point.

But I'm just pointing out that it is very extreme. It's neutral but very extreme. But then, once we're here, there is a very important thing to recognize that happens, and that is that we react in fear. Just like I did when I first got here, I mean, I was here, and as soon as I was here, I was fearful, deeply fearful within seconds. I wasn't even born yet. It was just the state of not knowing who I was and feeling that I lost all that I am immediately provoked a very deep fear in me.

Because we're so separate-feeling right now and because the constraints of being biological and physical are so extreme, there can be a huge amount of fear that could potentially arise. Now, fear, I like to call fear just unevolvingness. It just means that we have not yet evolved into such a way that we can meet this level of constraint with love all the way. If we fully integrate this and fully know it and fully process it and fully express love and all of its virtues through this, it will not provoke fear.

Now, it's like the ascended masters or whatever words you want to use—they're able to meet reality with full love, full humility, full surrender. They are evolved enough that it does not provoke fear. But for the vast majority of us, it provokes fear because we have not yet come to terms with, we have not yet fully evolved through and integrated this follow-up experience.

And when fear happens, that gives rise to the ego because the ego is just the portion of us that is really trying to fix the problem. There's a big problem now. The big problem is we feel separate. We feel alone. I don't feel connected to Source. I don't feel connected to God. I don't feel love anymore. I don't feel power. I don't like this. We're going to fix this problem right now.

And fear immediately is like, "Ah, we want to fix it." So ego comes to the rescue and says, "Okay, you have value because you do this or you believe this, and you look, you have power because look, you can even hurt the person next to you," or whatever story the ego is telling. And there are many of them. We live over a lifetime, and the ego can have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of layers of justification and story and belief, all to try to get us to avoid the fear at the bottom and to try to help us feel better, try to fix the big problem.

So that is, you know, when we say evil, evil is not a fundamental substance or force. The fundamental substance is love. It's consciousness itself, which is of love. Spirit itself, which is love, unconditional love and freedom and the joy of being, is the substrate upon which all experience occurs always. There's nothing. The deepest, deepest level is total freedom, love, joy, and power and beingness. Beingness is just so rich.

But then, within a system like this of manifest experience where we experience limitations, and the ego can arise mightily, then when we act in service of the ego, which is in service of fear, we end up hurting each other a lot. And we can say that is what really evil is. Evil is all of us serving fear, making choices in service of fear.

It's all about the quality of our intention. I really like the work of the physicist and consciousness explorer Tom Campbell because he talks a lot about the term "quality of intent." That is what intent are we bringing to bear in any context, any choice? And the intent is either of love or fear. That means the intent that we're issuing forth is either in alignment with the truth of who we really are—compassionate, kind, loving, accepting, selfless, giving, all the things that love can mean—or are we trying to serve the ego? Are we trying to make ourselves feel better? Are we afraid of something, so we're going to do our best to do whatever we can to avoid that fear?

That fear-based intent really is what we call evil, and it can get really ugly. I'm not making it sound light. The ego can get incredibly ferocious in the local sense. Does it have any real power? No. Does fear have any real power? Not past the boundaries of this simulation, the boundaries of the play within the play.

We're all afraid. We've got a planet with billions of people who are operating largely—not always, but largely—from fear-based intent every day. We're all making choices, just trying to survive, just trying to secure the next whatever, just trying to feel better now because my group is better than that group, my religious belief is better than yours, or whatever thing that we're doing. So much of that hurts. It actually hurts ourselves too and others, and that can get rather nasty and rather destructive in the short-term, local sense.

It's too bad that we aren't born with a more permeable veil so that we're not feeling so alone. Babies are helpless anyway, physically helpless. They're so totally dependent on their parents or the caretakers, but oftentimes, caretakers are hurt human beings themselves, and so you're not necessarily going to find love and comfort in your mother and your father.

Absolutely, that is very true. Do we know from the start that our parents are going to be either loving or not loving?

Well, in the pre-life situation, you can view who they are and what's likely or not to happen. So, basically, yes, we know who they are and what's likely to happen with them. Now, do unanticipated things happen, and they might change course? Yes. This is a novel system. We're all making free will choices every day, so sometimes there can be unanticipated outcomes. That's part of what makes this physical experience so amazing is that novelty can occur.

But in general, yes, we can see that ahead of time. But to your comment about it's too bad the veil is not thinner, the purpose of this reality is to come to this point of perspective and to operate lovingly through it. That is the very purpose. So it's not too bad because if we wanted to have an unveiled experience, we can and we do. That's fine. That's wonderful.

But if we want to try to meet this level of contrast and constraint, and we really want to do it for real—like we're really here, we're really doing it, we're really here right now—if you really want to do that, then we need to dive all the way in and work from within the limitation.

Ultimately, there is no real harm. I'm not making light of the deep suffering that can occur on Earth. Of course, I've suffered deeply myself. I'm not making light of it. I'm just saying that the love and the total freedom of our being, the immortality, is deeper. It's greater, and it cannot actually ultimately be harmed. So it's just that we are very bold and ambitious. We're so creative. You could say that we will come even this far into this veiling to have this type of experience within form.

Well, look for a moment at the nature of soul. What soul is, where does it come from, assuming it's created? What's the soul's relationship to the beings that people call angels?

Yeah, okay, so while we're on Earth, one of our favorite questions is, "What thing is this other thing?" because we live in a world of things, and we perceive a world of objects and distinction. So when we want to understand what this other thing is, we say, "Tell me what other things I can associate with it so that I understand it because I know what a dog looks like, and I know what spinach tastes like. I know all these things, so which one is that like?"

Well, the problem is—not the problem, just it's not a problem—the way the reason that's an issue is because all that form, all those discrete things that are this and not that, they arise within the substance that transcends them all. And that substance itself is what we very crudely call spirit or consciousness itself, awareness itself.

Okay, so when you ask what is the soul, the soul is that nameless, limitless substance. But if we want to use a metaphor because metaphors are pretty much probably the best way we can try to speak to some of these things, if you imagine all that is as the ocean of being, and within it are these things rising, like currents in the ocean, and there are temperatures in the water, and there are things, and the water moves, and it has properties to it, but it's all water. It's all made of water.

Then the soul is like a drop in the ocean that has been given free will within whatever context it will engage. So the soul—I'm a huge fan of the Rumi quote: "You are not just the drop in the ocean. You are the mighty ocean in the drop." I love that because the soul is not the whole, but it also is the whole. It also experientially works towards evolving towards the power and the perfection of the entire whole, even one drop.

So when you're asking what is the substance of the soul, that's the best way I think metaphorically to describe it. Your soul is you. The you that feels like you to you, that's your soul. You're not some higher self. Sometimes when we think about the human character and there's a higher self, well, I don't know who that higher self is, but I'm pissed off with them because I don't like being this human character here, and whoever that is, I'm gonna have a word with them later. It's you. Sorry, it's not somebody else. It's you. It's just the you that is not constrained, not veiled, not limited to just being the human character, but it's still you.

So the soul is you, and you are part of the whole, and you can't be any other way, even if you do get deeply veiled for a while.

We talked yesterday about miscarriages. I think I asked whether you thought other miscarriages came about because of the soul being afraid and giving up on the project it had undertaken.

Well, I don't know how often or how common that is. I just know that because I made that happen, it's possible. So I imagine that there are other beings who have a similar reaction that I did. I don't know how many of them are now. I will say that in that case, clearly, it was not the mother's fault. It was mine, and I'm still responsible for it now. Like, I may be playing this character Christian for a while, but still, me, I still made that fearful choice in the womb, so I'm still responsible for that now. It was my issue, not the mother's.

But if, as some NDErs have said, women who've come back from a near-death experience saying, "While I was there, I met the toddler or the young person who was my miscarriage or was my abortion, and they are growing up in heaven," now, that growing up in heaven is still for your miscarriage. Is that still part of you? Is your soul connected in some way to that forever?

Yes, absolutely. The relationships that we make on Earth are very precious and lasting and important. So even the relationship of a child that has not been born yet with his mother is very powerful. Even if the mother hasn't seen the physical face of the child, there's still that relationship there.

So death can't separate us. That's not a thing. It looks like, of course, it looks like that separates us on the surface here, but what love joins, relationships as they're joined by love, they can't be lost. And in other reality systems that are thought-responsive and that endure, yes, of course, we can engage one another in a way.

So we're very joyful beings. To be a child, even one who was never born, to be able to kind of project forward into what the human life would be like and what I would look like and then meet in a non-physical reality system in a very physical way, that is wonderful. That's a wonderful, creative, joyful, expressive thing. Why not do that?

You mentioned that you still felt responsible for the miscarriage. How does that relate to karma over lifetimes?

Yes, so karma, I think, is a term that we sometimes use a bit crudely. So I just want to say this: Karma is there's an energetic accountability for who we have been and who we are. There's always cause and effect. There's cause and effect in the physical, and there's cause and effect energetically. Every single intent that we wield, the real why behind our choices, is a part of us. All of it.

So I'll just make a side comment, something else we talked about yesterday that I think is important to mention in this context. Some people ask the question, "Well, if there's energetic accountability and if there's karma, well, how does that jive with unconditional love? Which one is it? Are we unconditionally accepted and loved, or is there karma?"

Well, I feel very strongly that it's both. It's actually both, and that sounds contradictory, but it's not. The very base, the very root of all things, is unconditional love. We are always, always, always, always, always accepted. We are always loved and accepted, no matter what—bold and underlined—no matter what. You can do anything, and you will not be not accepted. You will be deeply loved and cherished, no matter what.

Simultaneously, the wisdom and love of Source is also such that within manifest experience, we are 100% accountable for all that we have been and all that we are. And we can call that karma. It just means that there's an energetic pattern that we carry with us, and those patterns can lead us sometimes into future experiences that may be what we would call very painful—sometimes within an existing physical life, sometimes a different physical life, sometimes in a non-physical environment that we might say is experienced as very hellish.

If we have a lot of fear, fear is hellish. Being afraid and then losing our power to fear and being hurtful to others is a personal hell. So if that is a part of us, we may, because of the laws of karma or whatever we want to call it, experience that in other systems that are thought-responsive, and it can seem quite hellish. Is that a punishment? No. It's not a system of "you're going to be punished now." It's a system of very natural and almost logical cause and effect energetically so that we can learn and grow through and integrate even that depth of fear because, when we can do that, that adds to the love and joy.

It's ultimately all in service of love and joy. Love is the real driver behind it all, even karma experiences, even temporary experiences that might be extremely painful. The soul is so great that it will even go through experiences of great pain in its path towards growth.

I'm going to jump back into metaphor for a minute. If we pre-existed the creation, I had said earlier we're part of the creation, but if we pre-existed the creation, does that mean we are the ocean? Is God, and we are drops, which are essentially God? And if so, and we are capable of doing bad things, does that mean that God is capable of doing bad things as well?

Okay, so we are drops in the ocean, and we are a part of God. Your first part of the question, yes. There's a great Wayne Dyer quote I love, and I can't remember it word for word, but something to the effect of, "And you are part of God, and you are God, and that is not a statement of blasphemy. It is a statement of your identity," and something in the quote about how you can know this humbly too, even as you know it. That is who we really are.

Okay, so does that mean that we created evil? No, because okay, so it's not that God created evil. It's that Source is so unconditionally loving that it gives us the opportunity to experience not love for the purposes of the expansion of love and joy, which is enduring. So it's so loving that it gives us the chance to even engage an experience where fearful choices can happen, where we can issue fearful choices.

Our fear is that evil. Fear is—I don't like just drawing direct correlations because it's not that simple—but you could say that fearful intention is the evil. So now, are you evil? No. Your true nature is love and joy, but when you engage in a system of limitation like this voluntarily and you subject yourself to having to make choices in this duality, it is possible that fearful choices can happen, and that's how it arises.

So it's almost kind of like a natural artifact for a free will system in which fear is possible. Does that mean that evil was created as a thing? No. It's that we are so free and so creative and so loving that we are enabled, we are able to engage systems where fearful choices can happen.

Do you think duality is necessary for a physical existence?

No, so well, if you're okay, so in order to have a physical existence, it is going to need to be a reality of some kind of form. So if by any form, if that's how you're defining duality, then yes, because in order to have a body, that means you have a definition. So if you have a definition, then you're in a reality of definition.

And there are many realities of definition that are not Earth, even like simple astral realms above ours that are very, very Earth-like. They are experienced as super normal, so normally you can't even tell the difference. They're not physical as how we would perceive them, but when you're there, it's ridiculously physical. When you have a body, there are other systems where you can have a body, and those systems have form.

But all of that is, but form is a tool and a toy of creation of spirit. So we don't have to use it. We can exist beyond it already. So if you're talking about duality in the earthly sense, like this level of extreme with linear time and discrete location, you don't need to be in a reality system of linear time and discrete location to have a body.

I gather some of your background is in technology, and you describe the veil acceptance simulator sort of like a machine with technicians who are fine-tuning it for each individual soul. Would a reverse machine be constructable on Earth so that we could run the veil?

No, no. Okay, so first of all, the technicians I mentioned are for the real veil acceptance simulator. The simulator did not have those same beings. I don't know how it was being run, but it was not the same beings.

Okay, can we do it from here? Here's a good metaphor: If you sit down at your computer and you play a video game like World of Warcraft, and you're in a massive multiplayer online role-playing game, and you sit down, and now you're an elf—that's Tom Campbell's favorite metaphor—so now you're an elf in the video game. Now, you've been in the video game so long, and part of this game is you forget that you're playing a game.

And then one day, you're having a video conversation with someone, and they say, "Do you think we can build a reverse simulator inside the game to take us back out of the game?" No, because you're already outside the game right now. You don't need anything in the game. The in-game is the illusion. So the physical is like the dream. You don't need technology in the dream to step back to where you already are, which is the place that precedes the dream.

That's why the veil is like—I like calling it a consciousness technology because that's how it feels. It's like a technology that we can engage and wear for the purposes of expansion of the body of our living awareness through an experience like this, for an experience that's physical where we can make choices and integrate experience. That is only possible because we have this ability to veil ourselves and to be limited to just that perspective from that higher-up system.

I think Paul said that we are already seated in the heavenlies, which almost suggests that we are out there, and the bodies that we're running and think are us are just avatars in a game, in a video game we call Earth life.

Yes, I think it's very much like that, actually. Metaphorically, it's like we fall asleep in heaven and have the dream of Earth. And then, while you're on Earth, it's like kind of a fractal system. By the way, while you're on Earth, you might play a video game and then lose yourself for a while in the game. You're not thinking about anything else. You can't even see the room around you because you're so focused on the game. Kind of like that, but much bigger of a step, of course, between us and the next level up where we are. We are already there right now.

One other point I'll make about the veil in the context of this question: It's not that the veil is absolute. It's organic. What happens is, the more we associate with the story of our lives and the thoughts—it's all the thoughts—we keep so deeply associated with this mind chatter and with all the things: "I got to do this, and who I am, and this is my name, and I got a job, and this person pissed me off," and we got all these thoughts that are coming up and rising up, and we're so associated with them, we're gripping onto them.

That act of associating with the form of this local character is what deepens the veil. So like children, they're veiled, but their veil is much more permeable because they have not yet deeply associated with the story of their human life. They can come and go pretty easily because they're just having a good time. They're having an experience.

But then, as they get older and they really start taking it seriously, and they're developing, and now, "This is my name, and I gotta go to school, and my parents told me a hundred times I gotta take out the trash," and as those things happen, then that becomes deeper and deeper who we are. And the veil works like that.

So I'm mentioning that in the context of your question because if we let go of all of our needs, associations, all the thinking, and we just, with great alertness and fidelity, are with the present moment, then the larger parts of us can rise back up on their own because we're already on the other side. The veil is not absolute. It's organic. So if we let go all the way, then it is possible to have experiences that are higher in nature.

I think you've said that we are here to actualize love. If we did that, that might thin the veil as well.

Absolutely. Oh, that's a really good point. Thank you for saying it that way too because that's another important point. Fear is a vibrational distance. So if we're super deep in fear and we're buying into perceptions of fear, that takes us vibrationally very far away. It makes the canyon wider immediately.

So like if you believe, "I'm powerless," or "I'm unworthy of love," as soon as you really buy into that, you're vibrationally really far. But love is our true nature. So yes, when we can actualize love and when we can be in a state where we know love, and even just appreciation for a simple thing—just looking at a sunset and being like, "Oh, wow, that's beautiful. I love that"—even just that moment, the veil's thinner because what's happened is you're in a state of love that is more vibrationally in alignment with what you really are.

And when you do that, it's a lot easier, by the way, to interact with the other side too because your vibration's higher, and they're able to engage easier with you. Whereas if you're lost in fear all the time, your vibration is relatively quite low, and that can be obfuscating itself.

Christian, sadly, we are just about out of time for today, but tell the listeners how they can find out more about you and your book and your mission.

Yeah, so first of all, I want to say that my book is free for anybody who wants to read it. Please go to my website at walkinthephysical.com. Go to the book tab, book page, third link down is a link to the Google Books entry. You can just click the "read for free" button, and it's all there for free.

My website is walkinthephysical.com, and I have some talks and other things shared there. You can reach me at walkinthephysical@gmail.com if you'd like to email me. The book is my attempt to somehow bring some language to this in a way that's concise. I feel I was guided by spirit in a certain way to do this in a certain way, and to be honest, I feel that the book is my life's work, and I'm deeply happy that it's now here. Hopefully, it will help at least a few people.

But I just want to say before we close that what's most important that I can say to you today is, whoever you are listening, you are loved. You are so loved. You don't need me or anybody else. You don't need any external thing. You are a part of God right now, and you are not actually human. You're having the experience of being human, and even though you may not feel it today, you are so deeply loved.

And ultimately, please also be reminded, there's nothing to fear. This whole experience of contrast and duality, I know we take it really seriously while we're here, but ultimately, there is no reason to fear it. It's all good.

And what's good is you're reminding us of that as well, Christian. Thank you so much for coming on NDE Radio.

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